Putin did everything possible to be our friend. The Neocon project to dismantle Russia is driven by the desire to go back to the good old 90's when we sent our oligarchs, to work with theirs, to loot the country. There is a familial component, as most of the Neocons were from families kicked out of Russia (or Belarus) and they simply hate Russia.
What a load of codswallop, both from the person writing the original item, and from the person criticizing it.
Where to begin?
Does this person really think that the destabilization of Ukraine that occurred in 2014 was as a result of EU machinations?
Has he ever heard of Victoria Nuland, and the gentle art of cookie baking?
Who threw Germany under the bus, when the Nord Stream pipeline was destoyed?
Europe?
Why does he suppose that Russia is conscripting people to fight in Novorossiya, when tens of thousands are voluntarily signing up every month?
Why is Putin's defence of Christianity, endless building of churches, and banning of the sodomites' efforts to seduce the young, hypocritical?
Why does he consider the Russian invasion to be a "brutal attack," when it only finally occurred after endless attempts at negotiation, and a clear betrayal of the Minsk Peace process by the west, and the ongoing to this day "brutal slaughter" of the civilians living in the Donbass and elsewhere?
Does he think that Bucha was Russians slaughtering Ukrainians - days after they had left the area?
How is Zelensky not a dictator?
How many political parties has he banned, and how much of Ukrainian media now has to shut down because it was only ever a product of USAID finance?
Which Russian-leaning church had all its facilities shut down by neonazi thugs?
Please reference a single opposition figure in Ukraine who has not been arrested and imprisoned, or had to flee to Russia, as in the case of Medvedchuk.
How is Zelensky not a welfare queen?
He and his regime are totally dependent on US and EU funding.
"Zelensky's primary duty... "
Is to do what he is told by the US, and thus far, he has done that, ie by using the nation he supposedly has a responsibility for, to reduce it to a smoking charnel house at the behest of western interests.
There is no such thing as a "peace deal."
This war will end when Russia decides it will end, and not a moment before.
The blusterings of Orange Man are so much empty rhetoric.
Putin made the point recently that Russia has never been an enemy of the west, and he gave many examples to back up his assertion, which apparently went right over the head of the comically-named and probably anagrammatic writer of this present piece of nonsense.
His final point about Starmer "actively recruiting soldiers to send to Ukraine" is complete rubbish.
Nobody wants to go to Ukraine, even if it is only so as to be part of a peacekeeping force that Russia has said will never be allowed to set foot there, bar a UNSC mandate, which Russia will never permit, as it has what is called a veto prerogative over its decisions.
You can choose to argue against a strawman or only refute the worst arguments, either way you aren't really being honest. That's why the steel-man type argument is best, argue against their BEST case, not their worst.
When you choose to only address their worst arguments, it's rather like having a toddler to debate against, even if you "win", you haven't convinced anyone that your argument is strong.
Douglas Murray would appear to be a shill who spews propaganda for whoever pays for it. I mean, the man supports and promotes the genocidal slaughter in Palestine so why would he not play this Russian game if it serves, as it must, his ends? he is a joke. A sad, sick, evil joke.
President Putin is not the enemy and more and more people are coming to realise that.
Your figures of 2000 dying a week are also wrong (should check before quoting Trump!).
2000 is closer to the daily tally on the Ukrainian side, without counting Russian losses.
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION
1 to 7 March: the enemy suffered losses of more than 1,590 troops... enemy lost more than 1,525 troops... AFU lost more than 1,665 ... AFU losses amounted to more than 3,810 troops... enemy lost more than 1,210 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 575 troops... Over the past week, 35 Ukrainian servicemen have surrendered...
08 03 25: AFU losses amounted to up to 30 troops... enemy losses amounted to up to 195 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 245 troops... enemy lost more 595 troops,... AFU losses amounted to up to 155 troops... AFU losses amounted to more than 80 troops,...
09 03 25: AFU losses amounted to up to 50 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 255 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 250 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 580 troops... AFU losses amounted to more than 145 troops... Up to 80 were eliminated...
Did it ever dawn on you there might be an alternative explanation for the Ukraine and Gaza Wars, not addressed by Trump, Neo-Cons, Douglas Murray, or MAGA? Maybe all the explanations for the wars are not truthful and are pure theater and the words used to justify them can't be taken at face value?
Let’s consider a scenario where such explanations are pure theater to cover up that Israel/Netanyahu are, arguably, acting as the scapegoats for the US in its wars against Russia and Palestine. Otherwise, the American public would not support either war? This is the apparent view of Col. Lawrence Wilkerson when he appears on Judge Napolitano podcasts on Youtube.
Israeli’s have always been a pariah class that are willing to do the dirty work of other nations. Isn’t this also a plausible reason for the overblown Holocaust story where Germans, Polish, and Catholics died in camps in massively greater numbers than Jews. But the story of a Jewish Holocaust covers up American war crimes such as mass rapes and military execution of 1.5 million German soldiers in the Rhineland (?) by starvation and dehydration.
This would mean that the Israel lobby in Congress is plausibly another Kabuki show that Israel has bought off the US Congress (with what, our own USAID money?). Oh, what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive.
Should we take everything in the “playhouse” of politics at face value? One step further, does the US need a WWIII atomic bomb war to cover up the obvious impending rollout of digital bank currency to lock down citizens, close banks, impose martial law, confiscate pension and social security funds to build $500 billion for data centers to control the public? Central Bank Digital Currency is the 3,000-year old wet dream of the oligarchs/bankers who have ruled the world forever. Moreover, the power elite aren’t trying to depopulate the world because of unsustainability but because they don’t believe they can control 8 billion + people any longer especially with the rise of the Internet.
In 1955 probably 99% of US citizens would have taken the kill shot, but in 2020 it was about 60% (?). Today greatly fewer Americans would take the shot after Denis Rancourt spilled the beans that COVID-19 impossibly did not cross the Canadian border in 2020 and 2021 C-19 deaths were due to the jab.
You say many things, amongst which are the mutually-contradictory assertions that Israel is only the US's lapdog, and yet there is a 3000 year old conspiracy to reframe the world in their own image by these very same lapdogs "who have ruled the world forever."
And btw, those surrendered Wehrmacht who died in the Rhine Meadows camps were not "militarily executed," they were starved and exposed to death with the direct and evil connivance of the US commander in chief.
Don't tell me I want Ukrainians to die. I want to give them the support they are asking for and let them decide. They prefer to fight than submit to the vile Russian invasion. However nicely you phrase it you are defending Russia's abominable crimes. It is your side that is murdering, torturing and raping Ukrainians. Your comments disgust me.
I got as far as the bit where you repeated trump's lie that America has poured hundreds of billions of dollars into Ukraine. But I did notice at a glance that you also repeated the lie that the revolution of dignity was provoked by the EU. Get yourself some (non-Russian) friends in Ukraine and find out out what really happened.
I don't vouch for the $350bn figure. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the total is $128 bn – still within the "hundreds of billions" range. If we instead call it "dozens of billions," would that change your calculations?
As for the "Revolution of Dignity," it’s known as Euromaidan and was sparked by the pro-Russia Ukrainian president’s refusal to sign an agreement with the EU. It takes a lot of rhetorical gymnastics to say the EU had no role in it.
You generally write intelligently. I do not believe for a moment that you seriously think “I don’t vouch for the $350bn figure” is a respectable excusefor repeating what we all know is a gross lie. As to the notion that you got in the “range”, sorry but $128bn aggregate over three years does not fall within the range of “American taxpayers pour hundreds of billions annually”. In fact you made the lie worse since Trump only claimed $350bn aggregate. Instead of repeating his lies, just be honest and admit that there are things your like about your president but blatant lying is not the mark of an admirable, or even a third rate, statesman. In most of the world, outside Russia and North Korea, Donald Trump’s behaviour is convincing people that he is a deranged, disreputable, mentally challenged, laughing stock.
Your comment on the revolution is disingenuous at best. You referred to “U.S. support for the EU-driven overthrow”. So it seems you are saying now that “EU driven” means it was the desire to join the EU that drove the revolution. Come on, you know this isn’t the suggestion your words contrived. Just be straight. Do you accept or do you deny that the reason for the revolution was their population’s desperate desire to break free from Russian control for innumerable excellent reasons including decades of abuse, murder, and cultural destruction, not to mention the holodomor? Again I suggest you find some people who were there in Maidan and ask them, why were you there? Put your comment about “EU driven overthrow” to them and see how they laugh, if they don’t cry instead.
I haven’t read Murray so I will pass on your analysis but I did pick up your final remark that suggests he should go and fight. Ukraine isn’t asking anyone to go and fight. They are just asking for a level of support which amounts to a fraction of the west’s military budget. It’s a brilliant deal where they are taking the brunt of facing up to an appalling threat to the western world in return for intel and a bunch of equipment much of which was a financial liability.
Not to dwell too much on the “hundreds of billions annually” — which, upon rereading, is speculative about a future that could lead us toward WWIII — I still stand by it, based on potential developments. It's not an argument about exact or even ballpark amounts in the past. In any case, you can replace “hundreds” with “dozens” of billions, and the point remains the same.
“Do you accept or do you deny that the reason for the revolution was their population’s desperate desire to break free from Russian control for innumerable excellent reasons including decades of abuse, murder, and cultural destruction, not to mention the holodomor?”
I accept that. However, it was catalyzed by the EU selling them plastic dreams, backed by the U.S. I’m not suggesting Ukrainians were driven by an irrational desire to join the EU; rather, the EU seemed to offer them a lifeline away from Russian threat and they were (understandably) desperate to take it. The West repeatedly betrayed Ukraine with promises it couldn’t fulfill, and the outcome, as we see, is more abuse, murder, and destruction.
“It’s a brilliant deal where they are taking the brunt of facing up to an appalling threat to the western world in return for intel and a bunch of equipment much of which was a financial liability.”
I could even agree with that — provided Ukraine remained a “buffer state” and received all necessary military and financial aid to maintain the status quo. That is not what’s happening now — nor Zelenskyy's plan — and you know it, as well as the risks and consequences of further escalation.
The numbers aren’t the most important thing but quoting numbers tells us something about a person’s honesty. Trump’s repeated lying is one sign that he’s more like a deranged toddler than a serious statesman.
Your more serious point is the one about the third world war. If I understand the point correctly it is that giving Ukraine more weaponry will eventually lead either to them kicking out the Russian terrorists and murderers from their land, or in some kind of Russian collapse similar to what happened in Afganistan. Putin won’t stand for this so would prefer to instigate a world war. I guess there are people in high places who know much better than you or I how likely that is. Personally I don’t think it is likely and perhaps you think it is. If so, that’s a reasonable point to disagree on in civil fashion.
You may say that the consequences of making a mistake favour caution, applying a kind of Pascal’s wager. But think of the consequences of giving in to Putin’s threats. If the west throws Ukraine to the bears, an outcome everyone knows the west considers deplorable, that tells the world without any doubt that dictators with nuclear weapons can get away with almost anything they want. If the west puts up with that, they will surely put up with almost anything. All you have to do is play the third world war card.
Why should Putin then satisfy himself with the partial surrender Trump is planning for Ukraine? The same logic gives him freedom to take more of Ukraine, to go after Moldova, the Baltics. His appetite for theft and destruction is unbounded. The non-proliferation deal will be over. The worst tyrants across the world will see their chance. We already see Germany planning to become a major military force for the first time in 80 years. Poland is already talking about acquiring Nukes. It won’t stop there.
It’s not easy to navigate safely through these two catastophic outcomes but voting alongside Russia in the UN, attacking Zelensky, pulling the plug on support, and generally making a buddy out of the nearest thing we’ve had to Hitler since 1945, isn’t going to help. The west has to face down Putin. It has to turn the screws militarily and economically until his system slowly grinds to a halt.
If America doesn’t want to pay for that, that’s America’s choice, though I will repeat a comment I just saw in the FT, that Trump is so obsessed with free riders he doesn’t see what an advantage it is to be the one driving the bus. Still, that’s not our business. Just don’t make it worse, Mr Trump. Just don’t boast you are going to negotiate peace when you aren't. Just don't make pronouncements about a country whose people and history you have already displayed gross ignorance of. Just don’t expect Europe to support America next time, as it did in America's disastrous war on terror. Just tell your defence industry that its exports (currently worth multiples of what it has given Ukraine) are about to tumble.
You may not feel this way, Cauf, but you can take it as a compliment that I write this. If I didn't think you were different from most people who take what could loosely be described as the anti-Ukraine position, I would have written the same as I write to them, which only takes half a sentence.
They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing while hoping for a different result. How many times have we heard: "Russia has a feet of clay ... Russia is a gas station with nukes" ... "If we don't stop them in Donbas, Russians will take Warsaw and Berlin and Paris" ..."Send in a dozen Challengers [Leopards, Storm Shadows ... whatever the latest miracle weapon is advertised], the Russian army will run, and Putin will be overthrown." After three years of bloodshed, isn't it time to face reality and let go of lies and delusions? There's no evidence that Russia can or wants to take Warsaw, constant repetition doesn't make it true. There's no evidence that Ukrainians can re-take the Russian-speaking provinces that don't want to be a part of Ukraine.
And please don't tell me that I'm ignorant on the subject, I grew up there and know quite well of Ukrainian people, demographics and history. And I talk to people there and they lost hundreds of thousands in the war and millions who left the country and won't return. Thirty years ago, Ukraine had over 50 million citizens. Now only about 30 million are under Ukrainian governments control and the country is on the verge of becoming a failed state. They are tired of the war and want peace. It's no anti-Ukrainian to want peace. But warmongers like yourself sit in comfort while wanting more Ukrainians to die.
Good points, Dmitry. The current self-contradictory fallacy being pushed by the warmongers is that Russia cannot defeat Ukraine, but Russia can and will take over all of Europe if not stopped.
There is something wrong with that idea, but the ones who keep pushing it cannot seem to see its inherent contradiction.
The US government started this war [@ 1994] with their 'expand NATO all the way to Moscow' policy. Millions dead and displaced in Ukraine, a bloody coup in '14, the destruction of Nordstream 2, etc. Demonic ghouls, feasting like zombies devouring a corpse, along with the MIC.
Putin did everything possible to be our friend. The Neocon project to dismantle Russia is driven by the desire to go back to the good old 90's when we sent our oligarchs, to work with theirs, to loot the country. There is a familial component, as most of the Neocons were from families kicked out of Russia (or Belarus) and they simply hate Russia.
What a load of codswallop, both from the person writing the original item, and from the person criticizing it.
Where to begin?
Does this person really think that the destabilization of Ukraine that occurred in 2014 was as a result of EU machinations?
Has he ever heard of Victoria Nuland, and the gentle art of cookie baking?
Who threw Germany under the bus, when the Nord Stream pipeline was destoyed?
Europe?
Why does he suppose that Russia is conscripting people to fight in Novorossiya, when tens of thousands are voluntarily signing up every month?
Why is Putin's defence of Christianity, endless building of churches, and banning of the sodomites' efforts to seduce the young, hypocritical?
Why does he consider the Russian invasion to be a "brutal attack," when it only finally occurred after endless attempts at negotiation, and a clear betrayal of the Minsk Peace process by the west, and the ongoing to this day "brutal slaughter" of the civilians living in the Donbass and elsewhere?
Does he think that Bucha was Russians slaughtering Ukrainians - days after they had left the area?
How is Zelensky not a dictator?
How many political parties has he banned, and how much of Ukrainian media now has to shut down because it was only ever a product of USAID finance?
Which Russian-leaning church had all its facilities shut down by neonazi thugs?
Please reference a single opposition figure in Ukraine who has not been arrested and imprisoned, or had to flee to Russia, as in the case of Medvedchuk.
How is Zelensky not a welfare queen?
He and his regime are totally dependent on US and EU funding.
"Zelensky's primary duty... "
Is to do what he is told by the US, and thus far, he has done that, ie by using the nation he supposedly has a responsibility for, to reduce it to a smoking charnel house at the behest of western interests.
There is no such thing as a "peace deal."
This war will end when Russia decides it will end, and not a moment before.
The blusterings of Orange Man are so much empty rhetoric.
Putin made the point recently that Russia has never been an enemy of the west, and he gave many examples to back up his assertion, which apparently went right over the head of the comically-named and probably anagrammatic writer of this present piece of nonsense.
His final point about Starmer "actively recruiting soldiers to send to Ukraine" is complete rubbish.
Nobody wants to go to Ukraine, even if it is only so as to be part of a peacekeeping force that Russia has said will never be allowed to set foot there, bar a UNSC mandate, which Russia will never permit, as it has what is called a veto prerogative over its decisions.
You can choose to argue against a strawman or only refute the worst arguments, either way you aren't really being honest. That's why the steel-man type argument is best, argue against their BEST case, not their worst.
When you choose to only address their worst arguments, it's rather like having a toddler to debate against, even if you "win", you haven't convinced anyone that your argument is strong.
Douglas Murray would appear to be a shill who spews propaganda for whoever pays for it. I mean, the man supports and promotes the genocidal slaughter in Palestine so why would he not play this Russian game if it serves, as it must, his ends? he is a joke. A sad, sick, evil joke.
President Putin is not the enemy and more and more people are coming to realise that.
Your figures of 2000 dying a week are also wrong (should check before quoting Trump!).
2000 is closer to the daily tally on the Ukrainian side, without counting Russian losses.
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION
1 to 7 March: the enemy suffered losses of more than 1,590 troops... enemy lost more than 1,525 troops... AFU lost more than 1,665 ... AFU losses amounted to more than 3,810 troops... enemy lost more than 1,210 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 575 troops... Over the past week, 35 Ukrainian servicemen have surrendered...
https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12553235@egNews
+
08 03 25: AFU losses amounted to up to 30 troops... enemy losses amounted to up to 195 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 245 troops... enemy lost more 595 troops,... AFU losses amounted to up to 155 troops... AFU losses amounted to more than 80 troops,...
https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12553425@egNews
+
09 03 25: AFU losses amounted to up to 50 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 255 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 250 troops... AFU losses amounted to up to 580 troops... AFU losses amounted to more than 145 troops... Up to 80 were eliminated...
https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12553533@egNews
Did it ever dawn on you there might be an alternative explanation for the Ukraine and Gaza Wars, not addressed by Trump, Neo-Cons, Douglas Murray, or MAGA? Maybe all the explanations for the wars are not truthful and are pure theater and the words used to justify them can't be taken at face value?
Let’s consider a scenario where such explanations are pure theater to cover up that Israel/Netanyahu are, arguably, acting as the scapegoats for the US in its wars against Russia and Palestine. Otherwise, the American public would not support either war? This is the apparent view of Col. Lawrence Wilkerson when he appears on Judge Napolitano podcasts on Youtube.
Israeli’s have always been a pariah class that are willing to do the dirty work of other nations. Isn’t this also a plausible reason for the overblown Holocaust story where Germans, Polish, and Catholics died in camps in massively greater numbers than Jews. But the story of a Jewish Holocaust covers up American war crimes such as mass rapes and military execution of 1.5 million German soldiers in the Rhineland (?) by starvation and dehydration.
This would mean that the Israel lobby in Congress is plausibly another Kabuki show that Israel has bought off the US Congress (with what, our own USAID money?). Oh, what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive.
Should we take everything in the “playhouse” of politics at face value? One step further, does the US need a WWIII atomic bomb war to cover up the obvious impending rollout of digital bank currency to lock down citizens, close banks, impose martial law, confiscate pension and social security funds to build $500 billion for data centers to control the public? Central Bank Digital Currency is the 3,000-year old wet dream of the oligarchs/bankers who have ruled the world forever. Moreover, the power elite aren’t trying to depopulate the world because of unsustainability but because they don’t believe they can control 8 billion + people any longer especially with the rise of the Internet.
In 1955 probably 99% of US citizens would have taken the kill shot, but in 2020 it was about 60% (?). Today greatly fewer Americans would take the shot after Denis Rancourt spilled the beans that COVID-19 impossibly did not cross the Canadian border in 2020 and 2021 C-19 deaths were due to the jab.
A bit chaotic really.
You say many things, amongst which are the mutually-contradictory assertions that Israel is only the US's lapdog, and yet there is a 3000 year old conspiracy to reframe the world in their own image by these very same lapdogs "who have ruled the world forever."
And btw, those surrendered Wehrmacht who died in the Rhine Meadows camps were not "militarily executed," they were starved and exposed to death with the direct and evil connivance of the US commander in chief.
They were murdered, therefore - not executed.
Thanks for the critique
Don't tell me I want Ukrainians to die. I want to give them the support they are asking for and let them decide. They prefer to fight than submit to the vile Russian invasion. However nicely you phrase it you are defending Russia's abominable crimes. It is your side that is murdering, torturing and raping Ukrainians. Your comments disgust me.
And yours disgust me.
Yet again today, we learn of Ukrainian firepower being unleashed on civilians in a Kherson market.
Many are dead and injured.
I got as far as the bit where you repeated trump's lie that America has poured hundreds of billions of dollars into Ukraine. But I did notice at a glance that you also repeated the lie that the revolution of dignity was provoked by the EU. Get yourself some (non-Russian) friends in Ukraine and find out out what really happened.
I don't vouch for the $350bn figure. According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the total is $128 bn – still within the "hundreds of billions" range. If we instead call it "dozens of billions," would that change your calculations?
As for the "Revolution of Dignity," it’s known as Euromaidan and was sparked by the pro-Russia Ukrainian president’s refusal to sign an agreement with the EU. It takes a lot of rhetorical gymnastics to say the EU had no role in it.
It requires even more to say that the funding came from anywhere other than the US.
You generally write intelligently. I do not believe for a moment that you seriously think “I don’t vouch for the $350bn figure” is a respectable excusefor repeating what we all know is a gross lie. As to the notion that you got in the “range”, sorry but $128bn aggregate over three years does not fall within the range of “American taxpayers pour hundreds of billions annually”. In fact you made the lie worse since Trump only claimed $350bn aggregate. Instead of repeating his lies, just be honest and admit that there are things your like about your president but blatant lying is not the mark of an admirable, or even a third rate, statesman. In most of the world, outside Russia and North Korea, Donald Trump’s behaviour is convincing people that he is a deranged, disreputable, mentally challenged, laughing stock.
Your comment on the revolution is disingenuous at best. You referred to “U.S. support for the EU-driven overthrow”. So it seems you are saying now that “EU driven” means it was the desire to join the EU that drove the revolution. Come on, you know this isn’t the suggestion your words contrived. Just be straight. Do you accept or do you deny that the reason for the revolution was their population’s desperate desire to break free from Russian control for innumerable excellent reasons including decades of abuse, murder, and cultural destruction, not to mention the holodomor? Again I suggest you find some people who were there in Maidan and ask them, why were you there? Put your comment about “EU driven overthrow” to them and see how they laugh, if they don’t cry instead.
I haven’t read Murray so I will pass on your analysis but I did pick up your final remark that suggests he should go and fight. Ukraine isn’t asking anyone to go and fight. They are just asking for a level of support which amounts to a fraction of the west’s military budget. It’s a brilliant deal where they are taking the brunt of facing up to an appalling threat to the western world in return for intel and a bunch of equipment much of which was a financial liability.
Not to dwell too much on the “hundreds of billions annually” — which, upon rereading, is speculative about a future that could lead us toward WWIII — I still stand by it, based on potential developments. It's not an argument about exact or even ballpark amounts in the past. In any case, you can replace “hundreds” with “dozens” of billions, and the point remains the same.
“Do you accept or do you deny that the reason for the revolution was their population’s desperate desire to break free from Russian control for innumerable excellent reasons including decades of abuse, murder, and cultural destruction, not to mention the holodomor?”
I accept that. However, it was catalyzed by the EU selling them plastic dreams, backed by the U.S. I’m not suggesting Ukrainians were driven by an irrational desire to join the EU; rather, the EU seemed to offer them a lifeline away from Russian threat and they were (understandably) desperate to take it. The West repeatedly betrayed Ukraine with promises it couldn’t fulfill, and the outcome, as we see, is more abuse, murder, and destruction.
“It’s a brilliant deal where they are taking the brunt of facing up to an appalling threat to the western world in return for intel and a bunch of equipment much of which was a financial liability.”
I could even agree with that — provided Ukraine remained a “buffer state” and received all necessary military and financial aid to maintain the status quo. That is not what’s happening now — nor Zelenskyy's plan — and you know it, as well as the risks and consequences of further escalation.
The numbers aren’t the most important thing but quoting numbers tells us something about a person’s honesty. Trump’s repeated lying is one sign that he’s more like a deranged toddler than a serious statesman.
Your more serious point is the one about the third world war. If I understand the point correctly it is that giving Ukraine more weaponry will eventually lead either to them kicking out the Russian terrorists and murderers from their land, or in some kind of Russian collapse similar to what happened in Afganistan. Putin won’t stand for this so would prefer to instigate a world war. I guess there are people in high places who know much better than you or I how likely that is. Personally I don’t think it is likely and perhaps you think it is. If so, that’s a reasonable point to disagree on in civil fashion.
You may say that the consequences of making a mistake favour caution, applying a kind of Pascal’s wager. But think of the consequences of giving in to Putin’s threats. If the west throws Ukraine to the bears, an outcome everyone knows the west considers deplorable, that tells the world without any doubt that dictators with nuclear weapons can get away with almost anything they want. If the west puts up with that, they will surely put up with almost anything. All you have to do is play the third world war card.
Why should Putin then satisfy himself with the partial surrender Trump is planning for Ukraine? The same logic gives him freedom to take more of Ukraine, to go after Moldova, the Baltics. His appetite for theft and destruction is unbounded. The non-proliferation deal will be over. The worst tyrants across the world will see their chance. We already see Germany planning to become a major military force for the first time in 80 years. Poland is already talking about acquiring Nukes. It won’t stop there.
It’s not easy to navigate safely through these two catastophic outcomes but voting alongside Russia in the UN, attacking Zelensky, pulling the plug on support, and generally making a buddy out of the nearest thing we’ve had to Hitler since 1945, isn’t going to help. The west has to face down Putin. It has to turn the screws militarily and economically until his system slowly grinds to a halt.
If America doesn’t want to pay for that, that’s America’s choice, though I will repeat a comment I just saw in the FT, that Trump is so obsessed with free riders he doesn’t see what an advantage it is to be the one driving the bus. Still, that’s not our business. Just don’t make it worse, Mr Trump. Just don’t boast you are going to negotiate peace when you aren't. Just don't make pronouncements about a country whose people and history you have already displayed gross ignorance of. Just don’t expect Europe to support America next time, as it did in America's disastrous war on terror. Just tell your defence industry that its exports (currently worth multiples of what it has given Ukraine) are about to tumble.
You may not feel this way, Cauf, but you can take it as a compliment that I write this. If I didn't think you were different from most people who take what could loosely be described as the anti-Ukraine position, I would have written the same as I write to them, which only takes half a sentence.
They say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing while hoping for a different result. How many times have we heard: "Russia has a feet of clay ... Russia is a gas station with nukes" ... "If we don't stop them in Donbas, Russians will take Warsaw and Berlin and Paris" ..."Send in a dozen Challengers [Leopards, Storm Shadows ... whatever the latest miracle weapon is advertised], the Russian army will run, and Putin will be overthrown." After three years of bloodshed, isn't it time to face reality and let go of lies and delusions? There's no evidence that Russia can or wants to take Warsaw, constant repetition doesn't make it true. There's no evidence that Ukrainians can re-take the Russian-speaking provinces that don't want to be a part of Ukraine.
And please don't tell me that I'm ignorant on the subject, I grew up there and know quite well of Ukrainian people, demographics and history. And I talk to people there and they lost hundreds of thousands in the war and millions who left the country and won't return. Thirty years ago, Ukraine had over 50 million citizens. Now only about 30 million are under Ukrainian governments control and the country is on the verge of becoming a failed state. They are tired of the war and want peace. It's no anti-Ukrainian to want peace. But warmongers like yourself sit in comfort while wanting more Ukrainians to die.
Good points, Dmitry. The current self-contradictory fallacy being pushed by the warmongers is that Russia cannot defeat Ukraine, but Russia can and will take over all of Europe if not stopped.
There is something wrong with that idea, but the ones who keep pushing it cannot seem to see its inherent contradiction.
At last, somebody with common sense - and actual knowledge of the situation.
Honestly, comments like this make me wonder what you put in your tea.
" ... We already see Germany planning to become a major military force for the first time in 80 years ... "
Pray tell, how will this dream be realized - when Germany is on its knees economically?
Will an Annalena come along to save the day, with her contempt for the German people, and her severe case of cognitive impairment?
Just try and say one sensible thing, rather than a thousand which are ludicrous.
There is no "threat to the western world."
Who moved east in the past few decades - having said to Gorbachev that they wouldn't?
It is the western world that is the threat - to everybody else - hence the rapid expansion of the BRICS coalition.
The US government started this war [@ 1994] with their 'expand NATO all the way to Moscow' policy. Millions dead and displaced in Ukraine, a bloody coup in '14, the destruction of Nordstream 2, etc. Demonic ghouls, feasting like zombies devouring a corpse, along with the MIC.
Wow, I see this is a funny farm forum. Enjoy yourselves, I am out of here.
MSNBC awaits you with thinly-disguised joy.